SPEAKER_02 0:15

Welcome to Practically Fit, Real Fitness Over 40. I'm Jen Chamberlain.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

And I'm Alex Johnson.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

And today we're going to talk about how fitness and particularly exercise can impact your mental health. I know that for me personally, exercise really helps improve my mood, deal with stress, and get through challenging situations. And it's been one of the key motivating factors in maintaining at least a somewhat regular fitness regime.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Yeah, absolutely, Jen. And I I think for both of us, this is a really important topic similar to the gut health podcast. We're going to open up and share our own experiences with anxiety today. And so I'm really excited to have this discussion today.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Yeah, absolutely. So Alex and I are going to talk a little bit later about our own experiences with fitness and mental health. But first, we are so excited to have our very first guest on the program, Brandon LaForce. Brandon is a licensed professional counselor, MSLPC, LPC, LCPC. I think I got all those acronyms right. And he practices in several states as well as a few countries. So Brandon, tell us a little bit about yourself and your practice.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Sure. So I've been in practice for uh 34 years. Uh I started in a private practice in a small town in Alabama, and then eventually, after 17 years, moved to Australia and worked for the Queensland government with intellectually disadvantaged adults with challenging behaviors. Prior to that, I did spend a couple of years working in Kansas with forensic patients. And I've also spent some time working with genocide survivors in the country of Rwanda. Currently, I live on an island in the Persian Gulf. It's called Bahrain. It's a kingdom. And I support sailors in the U.S. Navy here on the Navy base.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

That's fantastic, Brandon. Thanks for so much for telling us a little bit more. I know in particular that you practice a type of therapy called DBT, which stands for dialectical behavioral therapy. And this is something that's actually helped me quite a bit in quite a few areas of my life. And so, you know, I just want to unpack a couple of those terms. So dialectical to me, you know, means the understanding that two things can be true at once. So for example, that you're not either a um complete failure or total success, right? Um, and for those of us who struggle with all or nothing thinking, that can be really helpful to acknowledge. And I also think it's really at the heart of this podcast because um Alex and I focus on, you know, we call it practically fit because it's the idea that you can be fit and healthy, but still enjoy the food you like and you know, have time for your family and friends. You don't have to be a fanatic to be able to be fit and healthy. So that's the dialectical part. And then it's also behavioral, meaning that you can take small actions that can impact the way you think and how you feel. And um that's another really key topic, I think. And that's what we're gonna dig into today is how you know, particularly fitness activities and behaviors can affect your mood.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yeah, so Jennifer uh DBT was originally developed by a lady named Marsha Linahan uh for people who were dealing with borderline personality disorder, and we know that that disorder, there's a lot of all or nothing thinking, and people have a hard time with connecting in meaningful ways with other people, and they have a hard time managing stress, managing their emotions, and they have usually have a lower uh level of ability to manage crisis. And so DBT addresses all of those issues. And the nice thing is we've learned that over the years that DBT is not only useful for borderline personality disorder, but it's also useful for dealing with chronic depression, with uh anxiety, with trauma, uh, with a variety of other issues, bipolar disorder, for example. And so uh I have run DBT groups for about 25 years now. And I've seen some tremendous um transformations happen in people's lives when they begin to feel empowered to practice the skills that are learned uh in DBT.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

So that's fascinating, Brandon. So let's kind of draw the thread through to fitness and talk about the science behind fitness and how it impacts your mental health. That's something we really like to look at on the podcast, is the science behind all of these topics that we cover. So, yeah, how does how does exercise impact our mental health?

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Absolutely. So uh the National Institute of Mental Health published an article a while back, and it talks about how exercise it reduces anxiety. Exercise reduces depression and negative mood. Uh, it improves self-esteem and cognitive function. Uh, it also can alleviate uh symptoms of low self-esteem and and social withdrawal. So you can see a whole variety of uh issues that are that can be impacted by exercise. One of the things that I always talk to my clients about, particularly when they're dealing with depression, is I talk to them about the this the whole idea of self-care. We talk about sleep always, we talk about nutrition, uh, we talk about exercise. So those are the three big ones that I emphasize with my clients when they're dealing with depression and even anxiety as well. And so, you know, you may be wondering, well, what does that look like in a practical sense for these folks? And so, people who are severely depressed, I try to get them to go outside and take a walk. And I I will just even tell them, would you please just take a 20-minute walk three times a week? You know, it it's recommended actually that we do 30 minutes of exercise three times a week, but I'm just trying to get them moving in the good direction, and hopefully that will be reinforcing and they will improve and add on some time for that exercise. It's interesting to note that the exercise, you know, it's three 30-minute sessions, but it doesn't the research shows it doesn't have to be a continuous 30 minutes, it can be three 10-minute sessions during the day that still gives the same benefit. So it's surprising, I think, for some people to realize I can do as little as that and still have effects, and absolutely you can.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Wow, that's fascinating. Alex, that reminds me of your um the post you did on exercise snacks, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Right, where you can go walk up the stairs a few times a day and see some great benefits for from it, for example.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Yeah, wow, that's really encouraging. So, Brandon, um tell us a little bit about what is the sort of brain-body connection? Um, you know, how does this work? Does it, you know, are these are there chemicals in your brain that it activates or or what's the mechanism where exercise is really helping improve your mood?

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah, absolutely. We we see people, when I see people, I talk to them in terms of, hey, you want to get those endorphins moving. You want to get those endorphins or that dopamine release in your brain. So there are certain chemicals in your brains that in our brains that's triggered and uh starts working more effectively when we move around. Um there's also this theory of the HPA axis, the hypothalamus, the pituitary, and the adrenal gland. And so uh exercise impacts that axis, as we call it, and uh it decreases stress. Uh, as a matter of fact, uh you can see a reduction in trauma symptoms with exercise because it impacts the amygdala, which is the uh part of our brain that's responsible for arousal. So, yeah, there's a lot going on up there when we just start walking.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

That's amazing, Brennan. So you mentioned that you can kind of spread this out through the day, and let's talk a bit more about how much exercise we need to get these benefits and see you know these changes in our uh uh chemistry, so to speak. Do we do we all need to be marathon runners, endurance cyclists, or like you talk a little bit more in depth about what you generally recommend?

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah, so we're talking about someone who's you know, if you're depressed or you're really anxious, you're probably doing little to no exercise. And so the research shows if you will at least spend 10 minutes, you know, over three, you know, three 10 minutes sessions over the course of a day that you can see, you know, you'll see improvement, you know, and that even you know speaks to what you were talking about as far as going up and down the stairs. I mean, going up and down the stairs for 10 minutes in your home if you don't want to leave your home. But uh, you know, getting someone out into nature, I think, also has some additional benefits as well. And so the idea is to do some brisk walking, but you know, again, if you can just go walk at a slower pace, I'm really fine with that. Um currently my trainer uh has me walking, uh, the goal is is about 12,000 steps a day. And I have one of these Fitbit watches, and and uh at my job I park on one side of the military base and I have to walk to the other side, and so one way is half my steps. So uh it's like you're getting your steps in, man. I'm like, absolutely, my watch doesn't lie. And uh, and so yeah, so it's nice to get those steps in. And and there's so many products out there these days can help us track our steps, you know, even on smartphones will help you track your steps. So that's a good way to kind of gauge am I getting enough am I getting enough uh movement in during my day?

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Well, we're pretty nerdy on this podcast, and we actually did a whole um a whole blog post on 10,000 steps a day as kind of being like the magic number. So I think you know, you're actually a little above that, so overachieving a little bit, which is great.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

It really does make a difference in making me, you know, feel better. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

So we talked about some of the conditions that this helps with. And I know Alex and I both, um we'll talk about this a bit later, we struggle a bit with anxiety. Um, and the fitness has been really helpful in that. But um, what about stress? I mean, you know, this isn't stress management is an issue for pretty much everybody from a lot of sources, whether you're a parent or you know, or at your job, stress can be really tough to manage. And I know just from my casual science reading, it tends to activate cortisol, like that fight or flight um uh response that we have. So, how can exercise help with stress management, particularly?

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yeah, so so it's a good point that you make this whole flight or fight. And so we have this stored up energy, you know, that just needs to be released in some way. And we don't release it, we start building up that cortisol, which can be a negative for our overall health. And so actually moving around is a way to release that energy, you know, that stored energy, if you will, that stress. And so one of the best things you can do when you're stressed is get out and and and be fairly vigorous with your exercise because the more you you you're stressed, you know, I mean the more you're releasing that stress, the more you're going to uh to work that stress out. It it's an incredible way to uh to release the stress. And uh you sleep a whole lot better at night too when you're tired, right? So so there's something to be said for exercise or even you know hard work um you know during during the day to manage that stress.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Yeah, absolutely. So um, you know, I want to go back to something you said earlier about other aspects of health. So, for example, diet and sleep. How do these things play a role in our mental health as well?

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Yeah, absolutely. Uh I would say the number one issue over my years working with clients, the number one issue in determining how someone is doing is sleep. So, you know, seven to nine hours is generally the amount that people need. Um, and then we talk about the REM sleep, getting into the deeper level of sleep that's more restorative, that's so important. Uh, but when someone tells me they're sleeping too little or sleeping too much, or they're having multiple awakenings during the night, that's always a not even a yellow flag, but a red flag for me that something's not right and we need to investigate further. And then, you know, the whole the the other piece when we talk about nutrition, you know, I never use the word diet with people. How's your diet going? I talk about it in terms of nutrition because nutrition is a much more positive spin, and it doesn't sound like we're depriving ourselves of anything that we want, but it's uh it's a healthy spin on what I think we need to be doing is making good nutritional choices that uh help us to maintain our blood sugar, that help us with our thinking on higher levels. It's just the overall way to care for our bodies with the fuel that we're putting in our bodies. So both of those are incredibly important, you know, and to add to that, you know, I normally ask people about their social interaction. And if you, you know, getting out and walking with someone is an incredible way, you know, two birds, one stone, because you are also connecting with another human being when you take a walk with someone. And uh I think that can be an amazing way to improve mood as well.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

I love this idea, Brandon, of um framing it as health versus diet. Because I know that's something we've talked about and written about a lot too, is that you know, diet can be, you know, kind of a negative word for a lot of people and triggering too.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

But it can be sh, you know, it can induce shame, induce guilt. Right. And so we talk about nutrition, it's like, oh, that means I have choices about what I get to put in my body. Absolutely, you do.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Yeah, absolutely. And that so ties in with what we're doing here, the idea that, you know, we can balance these things in our lives and be healthier all around. So, Brandon, I just want to thank you so much for joining us today and uh sharing some of your wisdom about this really important topic of um fitness exercise and mental health.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Absolutely. It's my pleasure. Thank you both for having me. Thanks, Brandon.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Wow, that was such an interesting discussion. Um, I really appreciate a lot of those points. But Alex, I'd like to hear from you. Like, what were your some of your big takeaways from that?

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yeah, I I I loved what Brandon said about uh several things. The first was really this idea of just getting into a fitness routine, just walking a few times a week, even as a bridge to more activity. You know, he mentioned the recommendation of walking three times a week as a baseline for fitness and how this can have an impact on your mental health. Uh, and this is where he starts with with his clients. Uh and what I also like about it is, you know, he did say, well, if if you can't go outside, do some walking on a treadmill, but this idea of getting outside and how it can help you. Um so I just love that simple concept. It it's very practical of uh walking to begin your fitness journey. Um I also like that he really had a holistic way of thinking about fitness and mental health. So generally when we talk about fitness in regards to mental health, you might think, oh, you're just talking about exercise. But it's really it's this triumvirate of things. It's diet, exercise, and sleep, and that they're all three very important as a part of your fitness routine and supporting your mental health. And side note, maybe we do a podcast on sleep in the future because awesome subject. I mean, it seems like a simple formula, right? And that's the beauty of it. But at the same time, all three of these things can pose major ch major challenges for people in their life. So yeah, I just really love the way that he presented it as this this holistic vision of fitness.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Absolutely. And it's really all about the mind-body connection, right? I mean, all of these things fit together and affect us in many different ways.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Yeah, absolutely. So so Jen, we heard from Brandon about the science behind how fitness can impact your mental health. We both have anxiety, and we're gonna open up about that today on the podcast. So I'm curious, when did you first find out that you had anxiety and what did it feel like?

SPEAKER_02 17:04

Yeah, definitely. Uh and you know, I want to say before that, it's really important, I think, to talk about these things. There's historically been a lot of, you know, I think shame in our society about dealing with mental health issues, and a lot of us do, and I think it's important to talk about those.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, maybe you're the same way, but I find that when I do open up about this with people, I'm often uh surprised that they too have had similar experiences. So like people who who do have anxiety, you're not going through this alone. It's quite common and yeah, it is helpful to open up about it.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Yeah, absolutely. So for me, it actually started when I was a teenager. I had um my first panic attack. And at the time, I couldn't even really articulate, you know, what I was feeling physically at in my body, as they say. My heart was just racing. I woke up in the middle of the night and I had this irrational fear or thought that I was gonna die, like right then and there.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

That's that is a that is a terrible feeling.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Yeah, it really is. And I was young, I mean, I was a teenager, so that you know, there's no rationality behind it. But I remember waking up my dad and saying, you know, I'm I'm just afraid. I, you know, I feel like I'm gonna die. And um my dad was great, he's really reassuring. And I learned that panic attacks weren't in my family. I learned at that moment, actually, he shared that with me, uh, both sides of my family, so I got it from both directions. Interesting. Um yeah, so definitely part of my sort of family history genetics. Um later on in my 20s, I had an EKG and a stress test, and I learned that I have an irregular heartbeat. There's many different kinds of irregular heartbeats. Uh, mine is premature ventricular contractions. And uh it's a the kind that's apparently not that worrisome for doctors, but I will say it's worrisome when you're experiencing them.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

I know the feeling.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Yeah. So um, my sisters, you know, have had this as well. So it's nice that we get to talk we talk about that pretty openly and um how it feels. But I've struggled on and off with anxiety ever since then. I've learned over many, many years to manage it through a combination of therapy, a meditation, and exercise. But it took me a really long time to figure out some things that could actually help. So uh what about you, Alex? How did you find out you had anxiety?

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Well, it's really interesting. And um, and I it's I don't know that we've ever talked about this between ourselves, this and death before. So it's kind of cool because I I I'm finding out now we've talked about our anxiety and so forth, but we never talked about the root of it. And we have very similar experience, which is like it's amazing. We're learning something new through the podcast today with each other. Um so I I also had the irregular heartbeat. Um and it when it first came on, I was playing basketball. I was about 15, 14 or 15 around that age. Um, and it freaked me out, obviously. Uh you know, you're out on the court. And at that time, you had had um the player for the Boston Celtics, I believe it was Reggie Lewis, uh, who had passed away of a heart problem. So that was like a very prominent time. So, like as a kid, I I'm freaked out by this. And same thing, I went to a cardiologist, a common type of irregular heartbeat, not dangerous, nothing to worry about. That's where that stopped. Like all I knew was that I have this irregular heartbeat, and the doctor said not wor to worry about it, even though it feels horrible. And even though you wake up in the middle of the night at some points and feel that feeling of, oh my gosh, I'm going to die. Because when your heart is not beating at a steady pace, I've not felt anything that is more scary in my life than that. Um so fast forward to like my mid to late 20s. Kind of funny story. Uh I had a neighbor who was uh, you know, let's just say we didn't get along that well. And you know, I'm a pretty nice chill guy. So whatever it was about this neighbor, um, he really pushed my buttons. And I mean, the the the root of the story is there was a big storm that came through our area, uh, you know, Dallas, Texas, it happens all the time. It blew over our fence, it it took shingles off the roof. Uh, we had a pretty big insurance claim. Uh the problem was though that you know, we have these small backyards that have dogs. The fence had blown over and it needed to be repaired. And when you have a fence that is right down the middle of the property line, it's what's called community property. So if you're a homeowner, you may have experienced this and you want to go half and half on repairing the fence. And I like could not get the guy to put in his half of the money on the fence, which is you know, I can understand some people might have uh, you know, financial um challenges like we've all had that, you know. I was young, same thing, but we really needed a fence. It was just an unfortunate situation, right? Because and he's like, Oh, I don't care if your dogs come into my yard and get money. It's not that, man. My dogs will escape. Like I need The fence and I could not get him to respond. I was calling his house, and eventually one night I had a glass of whiskey and I went over there and just banged on the door and confronted him and finally got the money straightened out for the fence. I think I might have been a little aggressive, which is like, yeah, if you know me, that's not my normal. No, it's not at all. I it's just like I'm chill, I'm chill, I'm chill, and then like my frustration hit this level. But I felt horrible afterward. Oh wow. And uh it felt like, you know, my my head was on fire, like the top of my head, my scalp, like my ears were burning, you know, wake up in the night with the irregular heartbeat. The weird thing was though, it didn't go away. I felt flushed like the next few days. I felt horrible. I was like, something's wrong with me. And so I and at this point in my life, I did not go see a family doctor. I didn't go, I was like, so we get in we talk about anxiety, right? Like I tend to have like this medical anxiety as well. And I think it stems from everything I saw with my dad, and he had strokes and he had cancer twice. And I know you've had similar experiences. So I finally went to a doctor. I went to like care, like a doc in the box care now, as you call it. And uh, you know, I I told him what was going on, and you know, he took my blood pressure and everything, and that at the time was okay. Now I do have high blood pressure now, again, hereditary, but back then it was still okay. And he was like, you know, this sounds like anxiety. So um he he gave me this very mild medication. Um and I stopped having the irregular heartbeat. And so then you start to put two and two together, and you're like, okay, so I've had this this this heartbeat is a symptom of the anxiety. Uh so yeah, that was kind of where it came on for me. But even with the medication, the anxiety will still pop up from time to time. It's oh yeah. Like you said, it's uh you have to look at a combination of things when it comes to anxiety. Uh a few times in my life I've had panic attacks, which is I think twice in my life. Um and it's really the panic attack is really interesting. So you said you had one at at home for the first time in the middle of the night. Like uh, I recall having one at work, and this has just happened the one time. And um it was weird. It's like no one in the room knows that you're having this and I just felt like I'm in this meeting, I cannot focus on anything anyone's saying, I just have to get out of here. I like everything in my body felt flushed, it's a weird feeling. And yeah, what was interesting to me was like no one knew that I was this was occurring, except for myself.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Right, absolutely. I think it's that fight or flight mechanism that Brandon talked a little bit about, right? It's like this biological thing that's telling you like I have to get out of this situation right now. And um, yeah, it can happen anywhere, like like the most inconvenient times.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah, and so I these days, you know, I have not experienced that um for years and years of any sort of panic attack. I'm I'm pretty good these days on the anxiety front. Again, you know, every once in a while it it kind of bubbles up. But um, you know, before the pandemic, when I started having trouble with my blood pressure, I knew that was going south because it was hereditary and my doctor had always said like it's gonna come on and I would have to monitor my blood pressure, and then I started spiking, and that gave me like health anxiety. And that so Brandon talked about sleep, right? Knowing something's going on when you're having trouble with sleeping. And for me, like at that moment in time, until I went to the doctor about my blood pressure and he put me on a medication, uh, I was I was having I couldn't sleep, and I was having like the irregular heartbeat and things like that. And then as soon as I take care of the root of the problem, it goes away. By the way, side note on the health anxiety. Uh, for anyone who has that, the best thing you could do is avoid Dr. Google. It's like Oh, absolutely is the worst I have stopped doing that and it makes a massive difference. Like Dr. Google is the worst.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Oh gosh, I have to chime in on that because uh health anxiety is a big issue in my family as well. You know, both my parents passed away from cancer. So, I mean, there's valid reasons that we worry about our health, but it's also we're also a little bit hypochondriac. And nothing good ever comes from consulting Dr. Google because no matter what symptom you have, you're gonna immediately go to like the very worst case scenario that Google puts in front of you. Yeah, cancer.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Always cancer.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Yeah, absolutely. Always. That's always the answer. So yes, I can't say enough. Um, I'm not always disciplined enough to avoid Dr. Google, but there's nothing good that comes from it.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Yeah, I've gotten a lot better about that. It's just it's it's hard. Um, so Jen, we both dealt with anxiety um in our lives, and and we've both have managed our anxiety uh partially through our fitness routine. So I I'd love to hear from you some of your thoughts on the ways that fitness has helped you uh mitigate your anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Yeah, absolutely. So, like I said, it actually took me a really long time to figure out that exercise could help with anxiety and you know, with the irregular heartbeat, et cetera. And actually, Alex, you helped me with this a lot because I was having some, I wouldn't say panic attacks, but had some of those anxiety symptoms at work where my heart was beating really fast. And I remember you and I used to work out sometimes together, and I would think, oh, I'm just gonna skip a workout because I'm having this symptom. And you encouraged me that it could actually help, and it does. And there's actually there's science behind that, that it can kind of break the chain of that fight or flight response, exactly like Brandon was describing. You know, these cord cortisol and these chemicals are building up. And if you give them an outlet by doing some vigorous cardio, it actually can help a lot. So I I appreciate your help with that. You learn from each other, right? Um, and then also, you know, over time I've learned that if I maintain a regular exercise, you know, practice, it helps me avoid the frequency of these symptoms as well. But beyond the actual management of anxiety, I like to say that running fixes everything. This is one of my core beliefs. But I I joke about it, but I found that exercise has helped me deal with some of the most really difficult psychological times in my life. So my dad, um, he was first diagnosed with cancer pretty suddenly and out of the blue. And I remember just the shock of that knowledge that, you know, he at that time they thought he had terminal cancer, which he eventually did. And I couldn't get my head around it. And I just went on a run, uh pretty long run. And over the course of that, I was able to come to terms with, you know, what was going on on a psychological level. So that's one example. Since then, you know, I went through a pretty tough breakup during the pandemic. And I just decided on a cold uh February day to go run 16 miles. And uh I felt a lot better afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

So it's not just that breaking the chain of the fight or flight. It's it's uh it's really like a spiritual experience and getting in and being alone and having time to think like that's exactly that's why I think that thing that Brandon said about getting outside is really important.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Exactly. It it had to be outside. It really I remember so vividly just that run and feeling the cold air and just being outside. It was yeah, all of that together. And then of course there's just the run-of-the-mill stress management. I I think nothing like going to a boxing class and hitting a heavy bag for 45 minutes to work out a stressful day, you know? How about you, Alex? How has exercise helped you manage stress and anxiety?

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Yeah, it's I think it's very similar. Um it's interesting because before I knew I had the anxiety, like when I would just get that in my early, early to mid-20s, I would get that irregular heartbeat. It would always be like in the middle of the night. It never failed when and this would happen to me pretty frequently, maybe like once a week. And again, it's that horrible feeling of like where you feel like you're gonna die. It's just not a good feeling. Even though my rational brain knows I've had this condition evaluated, it's not going to hurt me. Uh, it just there's nothing you can do in that situation to kind of talk yourself out of this does not feel good, this feels bad, like I, you know, like I'm gonna die. Uh so the weird thing I figured out that would help me with the with that irregular heartbeat in the middle of the night, because I it's not like I would go out in the middle of the night and go for like a three, four mile run at that time. Uh like I could do that in the day, right? But um, I mean, I guess I could have, but it's probably not the best idea. Probably not the best idea at night. I mean, because you do need to get some sleep, so I'm trying to get back to rest quickly. So I had like a pull-up bar in my office, and I would just walk down the hall and just start doing pull-ups, like intense pull-ups. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, wow, this this stops it. So I figured that out. So it's kind of weird in the middle of the night. I just go do like several sets of intense pull-ups, and then I would feel better and kind of break that that heartbeat. It's almost like it got it beating in the right rhythm again.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Like you said, breaking that that absolutely fight or flight.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Um, but again, once once I found out what was going on and went to a doctor, uh, and by the way, that led me to then realizing, hey, I really do need to have like a family doctor and go regularly. And I got I got on the straight and narrow after that and was going on a yearly basis for my checkup. Uh, but it's really this multifaceted approach to countering the anxiety. I mean, I mentioned the medication, uh things like meditation help. Uh, when you think about fitness, even if you can get a massage, that can be um uh reduce your anxiety or help with stress management. Um also being uh around my wife now really helps me. Like that for me has been the biggest thing in in the past few years. Just seeing seemingly being around her reduces my anxiety. So I really like what Brandon said about uh getting out with a friend or partner and going walking, uh, because I've definitely had that experience here recently and with you and other fitness friends. Uh so just thinking about it as this holistic thing where exercise is one of your tools and your toolbox uh for managing anxiety, along with these other aspects of your fitness and the things that uh Brandon talked about. Definitely same experience as you going out, going on a run. That's um really something that would help me. I even found when I would have like spells of intensity with anxiety that um it might take a few days of running in a row for me to really kick the feeling. Uh, but it's it's really one of the most um central things to to helping manage the anxiety. Um so I I would often turn to fitness when the anxiety broke through um the medications and other things that I was doing. Um these days it's like if I am feeling that way and it crops up from time to time, you know, a long bike ride is amazing because again, it's that same concept like you mentioned on the 16-mile run. You you go out, you get get out with nature, you can be free with your thoughts, you feel the wind rushing against your face, it it awakens different senses and different feelings in your body. Uh you could go for a hike, you could go for a trail run, anything where you're really getting out with nature. Um I think of it as really meditative or mindful, focusing on nature, focusing on your surroundings. So again, I go back to what Brandon said. I really like that about getting outside because I think that's a key component of your fitness. It's not just exercise, it's getting out, communing with nature, uh, and getting getting out of this anxious mindset that you have. So, yeah, that's that's how it helps me.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Yeah, and in addition to that, I think mindfulness is really one of those keys. And I wanted to go all the way back to, you know, this type of therapy that Brandon practices that I talked a little bit about, DBT, uh, or dialectical behavioral therapy. It really focuses on mindfulness as one of the core components because mindfulness, all those things you described, Alex, they help you get into the present moment and get out of ruminating about the past or the future, which a lot of times is a source of our anxiety, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:14

So well, that was a great discussion, Jen. Uh, really amazing having Brandon as our first guest on the show, all the way from Bahrain. That's right. So that our first interview is done halfway around the world, which is really cool and the the beauty of digital media in 2023. Um, amazing discussion with you. Like, it it's great to me that we can learn things about each other going through the podcast. Like, we've talked about our anxiety before, but like there's some things in there I learned about you today. So that was really cool. And I hope others enjoyed the discussion. Um, if you have stories you want to share, please head over to practically.fit. You can comment on the podcast, subscribe to our newsletter. If you have thoughts or uh ideas that you'd like to share, shoot, shoot me an email at alex at practically. So, what are we going to talk about on the next episode, Jen?

SPEAKER_02 35:04

You know, kind of going along with this theme of mindfulness, I thought we might talk about the joys of walking and hiking, like how this can be actually an important and uh helpful part of your fitness practice and enjoyable as well. So, yeah, let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

All right, yeah. So that'll be our topic next week. Until then, remember fitness is for everybody.