SPEAKER_00 0:14

Welcome to Practically Fit, Real Fitness Over 40. I'm Jen Chamberlain. And I'm Alex Johnson. And today we're going to talk about sleep. What impact does sleep or lack thereof have on your health? How much do you need? And how can exercise help you sleep better?

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Yeah, Jen, I'm excited for this episode. This is one that we talk about in my household quite often because sometimes uh both my wife and I don't get a good night's sleep. And we notice the effects the next day. Things like you don't feel as sharp at work. Sometimes you'll even feel maybe fuzzy or disoriented. You're just not all there. Totally. A lack of sleep can really impact you the next day, but there can also be long-term effects. And and we'll talk about that today. Um, you know, there's there's various things that can impact sleep, like for example, alcohol.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Oh, yeah, definitely. That's one. And as at on that topic, we're doing a little experiment tonight. Alex and I are enjoying one of our favorite beverages, and we're gonna see how it impacts our sleep.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

That's right. So we thought we thought we'd have fun on the podcast about sleep and have a drink while we're doing the podcast. So I'm having whiskey. Jen, what are you having?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

I'm having a fancy red wine from Spain.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Oh, sounds very good. So we'll do an experiment and we'll see if this alcohol impacts our sleep tonight because we are recording about uh 9 30 p.m. Central, about 7 30 p.m. Pacific, where Jen is. Uh, we'll let you know in the podcast description how our sleep worked out uh in terms of uh actual hours slept and quality.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Quality, quality, absolutely, because we do believe on this podcast that you should be able to eat and drink things that you enjoy as long as your diet is reasonably healthy. So we'll see how this goes.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

And so that includes whiskey.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Exactly. And uh Pinot Noir.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Pinot Noir, yeah. So um, yeah, I mean, uh like we said, as we were talking about earlier, a lack of sleep can, you know, impact the next day. You may not feel that great at work. But what about the long-term effects of not getting sleep, Jen? What did you find when doing some research on that?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, it's interesting. My uh general practice doctor actually likes to say that sleep is foundational. And I'm totally butchering how she says this because she has a really catchy phrase. But basically, she says that if you don't get enough sleep, your overall health suffers in many ways. She thinks that's just like the foundation of your good health. So, you know, the science really backs this up. In 2021, the American Academy of Sleep Medicine put out a position statement in the Journal of Clinical Sleep Medicine. There's a whole journal dedicated to this topic.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Oh, well, I gotta say a position statement. This is the first time we've ever read a position statement on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

It's a first on the podcast, a position statement, exactly. So it says, and I'll quote here since this is very serious um, sleep is a biological necessity, and insufficient sleep and untreated sleep disorders are detrimental for health, well-being, and public safety, which was that one was interesting to me. Public safety. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, yeah. There's specific, I'm getting going to give you some examples here. But uh, you know, overall health, mental well-being, cognitive functioning. So that's what you were talking about, Alex, how well your brain works the next day on, you know, lack of sleep. And then public safety, since accidents and injuries can be caused by insufficient sleep. So let me give you just a couple of examples that I'm sure you've heard of. One was the Exxon Valdez oil spill and the Chernobyl nuclear disaster. Both of those were thought to have been at least partially due to sleep-deprived operators.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Oh, wow. That's I need to go back and watch that mini-series on HBO about Chernobyl because I I was watching part of it, but I don't remember the sleep-deprived part. So that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Yeah, yeah, really interesting. Like huge consequences. So, quoting again, they say, quote, chronic insufficient sleep is associated with an increased risk of mortality and contributes to both the individual risk and societal burden associated with several medical epidemics, including cardiovascular disease, diabetes, obesity, and cancer. So that is a pretty scary list. And sleep researchers say in order to avoid these problems, you need both adequate quality and quantity of sleep. So I thought we'd dig into that a bit.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Yeah, let we'll talk about the quantity of sleep here in a moment. And I think what stands out to me about sleep is, you know, sometimes when we research uh these different things that we like to look at on the podcast uh related to health and wellness or fitness, you know, you can draw maybe a a bright line to one particular downside of something. But in terms of sleep, it's just everything. Like it impacts everything. I mean, so it's not like we can point to say, oh, it's really bad in terms of it's bad for everything if you're not getting enough sleep. So, you know, I think about it, a bad, you know, I have high blood pressure. A bad night's sleep can increase your blood pressure the next the next day. And that's just one thing. You you heard the list diabetes, cardiovascular disease, obesity, cancer, medical academics causing radiation fallout that goes across multiple continents. Right. You've got to get sleep.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

That's right. So, how much sleep do we really need, Alex? Uh oh, wait, I think I know the answer. It's eight hours, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

That's what you always heard growing up, right? Like you must get eight hours of sleep. So I thought I'd look into it, and let's just say there are a lot of different sources out there for this. Okay. So there's something called the National Sleep Foundation, and they say that adults ages 25 to 64 should get seven to nine hours of sleep. So eight is right in the middle. Now, if you're over 65, the National Sleep Foundation says you should get seven to eight hours. So they back it off a little bit. And they had a chart and there were some acceptable ranges that went on either side of this, I guess, depending on factors that are personal to you. You know, I've heard people who say, Oh, I only sleep five or six hours every night and I'm fine. So I mean, again, they're saying sort of median seven to nine hours of sleep from 25 to 64. Uh the Sleep Foundation of Australia, not to be outdone by the National Sleep Foundation, which is US based, also says seven to nine hours of sleep. They say the same thing. Now, I found another sleep foundation. They're not the National Sleep Foundation. Who knew there were so many sleep foundations? This one is a one-care media company, whatever the hell whatever the hell that means. They say adults should get seven hours or more. So they don't do the range. They just say it so basically they're saying at least seven hours. And then the Mayo Clinic, obviously, a well-respected source, says the same thing, seven hours or more. So what I took away from this variety of sources on the amount of sleep is that we should be getting at least seven hours of sleep a night.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Okay, that makes sense. Uh, and you know, just like we found with water recommendations, apparently there's a range. It's not, you know, one specific, like exactly eight hours. So that that makes sense with a lot of other topics that we've looked into.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

So, Jen, seven hours. Do you do you get seven hours of sleep a night?

SPEAKER_00 7:18

I do get seven hours of sleep a night. This is one area where I excel.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Uh so do you have a general range? Like, do you get eight? Do you get nine? What like what's your range?

SPEAKER_00 7:28

It's uh seven to nine, I would say. I'm like right, I'm right there. So if you're can't gonna compete with me on that, I think you're gonna lose every time, Alex, because I I'm nailing the sleep game.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

No, I think I would I I'm happy if I get seven hours. If I'm getting eight or nine, I'm ecstatic. Uh you know, do you do the sleeping in at all on the weekend?

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Or no, I don't. That's actually something I don't do. And I've actually read it's not that great. And if you sleep in for a long time on the weekends, you're probably sleep deprived the rest of the week and just catching up, which isn't the greatest thing for your body. But I'm gonna say I have an unfair advantage. I don't have children, I only have a dog to take care of, and I am not phased by sensory problems. Like, you know, I don't care if there's sirens outside, etc. I can sleep through anything. It's my superpower.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Yeah, that's great. I I mean I do okay. I I would say I'm a light sleeper, but yeah, I'm I'm usually happy if I get seven hours. And sometimes I we do do the sleeping in on the weekend thing. So the funny thing I've noticed about that is if you sleep in on a Sunday, uh, you're not sleeping well that night.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah, that's right. That's a problem.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Yeah, and I think not only is it because you've slept in and your body's not like I don't need sleep right now, maybe, but also you're thinking about the n the work day and everything. Sunday is always my worst night of sleep as it is, but I've noticed if I sleep in on Sunday, then it's not gonna be a good night's sleep. So Sunday's always a good day to get up early and go do some exercise, like go for a bike ride or something early and get it out of the way. Or wake up at 6 a.m. for an arsenal game.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Or run at 6, because in Dallas you have to run that early just to get ahead of the heat.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Well, I will say we are exceptional, Alex, because most people are not getting that much uh sleep. So one of the things I wanted to look at was the impact of exercise on sleep. Because obviously, you know, our busy lifestyles can be to blame for not getting enough sleep. But there's also, and I will say I'm guilty of this, there are times when I have the best intentions, I go to bed on time, I wake up in the middle of the night and just can't fall back asleep again. Or, you know, I can't fall asleep quickly. So that is something I definitely struggle with. And I found a couple of articles about this topic, you know, insomnia, uh, which is the ability inability to either get to sleep or stay asleep. And this one in particular I was really interested in. It was titled The Bidirectional Relationship Between Exercise and Sleep: Implications for Exercise Adherence and Sleep Improvement. And this was in the American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine, which I don't know, that was a funny title to me. Like, what is lifestyle medicine? There's there's a whole journal dedicated to it, apparently.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Lifestyle medicine. It sounds trendy, but yeah, like you said, I'm sure it's a very serious journal.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yes, it is a serious journal, but I was it I just found the title funny. But anyway, it had some interesting statistics, including that 30% of employed adults report getting six or fewer hours of sleep per night, and about a third of all adults report sleep complaints. So again, you and I, Alex, are kind of the exception here.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Well, and I mean, do do we think that's because we exercise?

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Uh it might be. Hold on, wait for that. So, according to the article, an increased body of evidence supports that exercise contributes to better sleep, including uh especially for people with insomnia. The results were a little more mixed for people who don't have insomnia, who don't have problems sleeping to begin with. There was not a lot of evidence saying whether or not they slept better uh with exercise. But for people who struggle in this area, exercise really helped. And so the interesting thing to me though was the study found that the reverse is also true. So poor sleep can hamper people's efforts to be physically active. So several of the studies the authors looked at found that in general, adults with poor sleep were less active than similar adults without sleep complaints. So that's kind of it's interesting to me that it works. It's bi-directional, as your article says. It works in both ways. And I've definitely found that to be the case. If I'm having a hard time sleeping, it's hard to muster the energy to do to get through my workout the next day.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

And then it's almost like a self-reinforcing spiral, right? Because you're tired, you don't want to exercise, and then you don't exercise, and then you don't sleep well again. So it's it's it's sort of a spiraling thing if you get into that pattern.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yeah, exactly. But the other thing I was curious about is does the timing of workouts matter? Because I will say for myself, I found I do sleep better after working out, but sometimes when I work out late in the evening, I have a hard time getting to sleep. So is there any science on that?

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Well, as a matter of fact, there is. Uh while fewer studies have been done on the specific timing of exercise and sleep, we did find one study titled Effects of Vigorous Late Night Exercise on Sleep Quality and Cardiac Autonomic Activity in the Journal of Sleep Research. And so that's a whole journal dedicated to sleep research. That sounds more prestigious to me than the journal medicine. Um I think if we're looking for information on sleep, this is the place to go. So the researchers in the study monitored 11 physically active adults in a sleep lab. And what have by the way, have you ever wanted to do a sleep lab?

SPEAKER_00 12:32

I just think I've done one.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

You've done a sleep lab?

SPEAKER_00 12:35

I've done one. I was hoping we would talk about that on the Okay, let's just digress here because we've been we're drinking on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

We have to get a study. Tell me about the sleep lab.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Oh, it is such a bizarre experience. So I went to sleep lab because I was having a hard time. Um, I felt sleepy during the day. And so I wondered if I wasn't getting that quality of sleep, even though I was getting the quantity. So my doctor recommended a sleep lab. It's so weird. You go to some, this was like in a strip mall, basically, the sleep lab. You go in the middle of the night, like right around bedtime, you go in there, you get, you put on your gown, and then they hook you up to all of these like sensors and wires, like basically you have all these cords like coming off of your head and chest, and then you're supposed to lay down and sleep like it's just a normal night. And they monitor you.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

That would beg the question. How would you sleep normally if you're completely like I don't think I could do that if I was wired up with all these wires?

SPEAKER_00 13:33

How would you Yeah, you do, and so you even have to like you have to buzz them if you need to get up and go to the restroom because they have to like help you like you know carry all your wires along with you.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Whoa, whoa, whoa. So wait a minute. So okay, now this is just a rabbit hole, but so somebody has the job of I work at a sleep lab, and so they're working like a reverse schedule and they're going. I well, yeah, it's obvious, isn't it? There would have to be somebody there to help you. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

There's somebody on the other side of like, you know, a glass window there like monitoring your vital like your vital signs and like there to help you if you need to get up in the middle. It is such a bizarre experience. One honestly, I never want to repeat. So then I did the whole thing. I slept through the night. I got up the next morning, got dressed, and went to work after this very strange, surreal night with strange people in a sleep lab. And finally I got my results a couple of weeks later, and I was just on the border of like not getting that good quality of sleep. Um, at the time I had a little bit of sleep apnea, and uh, so that was affecting my breathing at night, which is a pretty common problem, but not enough where I needed treatment, so that was good. I just decided, you know, I can just try a little bit harder to wind down early, and that's where that ended. But uh it was a very bizarre experience.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Now, so I'm a side sleeper. Would I even be able to do the sleep lab? Like, would the wires be all tangled up if I'm doing the side sleeping?

SPEAKER_00 14:57

It no, you'd probably be okay unless you start like, you know, rolling around a lot and you get all twisted up in your wires.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

So I and I bet the people working at the sleep lab are glad to have smartphones because that strikes me as a very boring job.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

So boring.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

No offense. It's just interesting to think about a sleep lab. I have never thought about it that deeply. Okay, so we digress. Uh back to the journal of sleep research. So these researchers in the study monitored 11 physically active adults in a sleep lab and measured their sleep quality after vigorous late night exercise and after a control day without exercise. They found that the late night exercise had no impact on the subject's sleep quality, though their heart rates were higher during the first three hours of sleep. So it sounds like the late night exercise did not stop them from sleeping.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

That's right. This is so interesting to me because there are a lot of articles you can find out on the internet that say that, you know, it will affect your sleep and that you shouldn't exercise too late at night. And apparently this study found it really didn't. I mean, I think it could be probably, you know, uh it probably very individual in terms of how it affects you, but you know, maybe it not so much. However, it's interesting this finding about the heart rate. Um, so it makes sense that your heart rate would be a little bit elevated, um, but apparently, you know, they were still able to fall asleep. Have you ever noted I mean, I know you track things like that. Have you noticed anything like that with yourself?

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Yeah, actually I have. Um, I there's a few times where I've done something really intense, you know, later in the evening. Several months ago, I did like a race on Zwift, and it was it was a short race, but it was really intense. So you're getting like up towards max heart rate for a bit of an extended period when you do those races, right? Or at least I do. And so yeah, I my heart rate was when I do those types of workouts, which are few and far between because you don't want to be doing that too often. I mean, it's it's a race, right? Uh, and it's fun. But again, you don't want to be elevating your heart rate like that all the time. But um, when I do something like that, I do notice my heart rate slow to come down. And I actually, that one time I did that late in the evening, I saw it bleed into my sleep data. Oh, interesting. Um, I I found this research super interesting. Uh you know, we did a podcast a while back on anxiety and talked about our own experiences. And I've had times where I've done vigorous late night exercise because I cannot sleep because I was having a regular heartbeat. Um so whether it was uh going and doing tons of pull-ups like until my heart rate seemed to even out, or um I've actually gone out at like midnight and gone running. Um I love running at night. Yeah. You know, the downside is that you may trip or hurt yourself, but I I just always have loved running at night, even like into the forest where it's dark. Like, I don't know, I get a rush out of it. So, but I've had times when it's rare, but where I'm just I feel like I need some exercise, I'm feeling anxious or stressed out, and I'll do it, you know, late, late, late in the evening or even like midnight, and I sleep great. So yeah, I I found this this research to be accurate, at least with my own experience.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Uh that's great. And that's an interesting takeaway for me because I like I said, I usually don't have trouble sleeping, but those times when I wake up and can't get back to sleep are really frustrating. It's usually my brain's kind of you know working on some problem and I just can't stop thinking about it. And um, you know, sometimes I'll get up and read, but maybe I'll get up next time and do a few push-ups, and maybe that'll kind of reset my brain to you know relax a little bit more. I don't know. Might be something to try and experiment.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Yeah, something to experiment with. Yeah, absolutely. Do you do you do the sleep tracking on your watch?

SPEAKER_00 18:37

I do. I do the sleep tracking on my watch. And sometimes I go down an interesting rabbit hole of like, why is that phase of sleep like that? Uh it's pretty consistent though. It's over time, like my sleep patterns are pretty consistent, and I fig figure that's individual to me. And as long as I'm not tired the next day, I guess it's working.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Yeah, and I will admit to being a bit addicted to the sleep traffic tracking now. Like, and I notice I notice my wife does the same thing. So we'll get up in the morning and like the first thing we're checking is the sleep score. And we always compare our sleep scores, which is really fun. And sometimes they match up with reality, and other times you look at the sleep score and you think, I slept amazingly last night. What is up with the score? It's not as high as it should be. So I yeah, I get a kick out of the sleep tracking. I think it give you gives you general trends over time. You know, again, I notice when I have alcohol late in the evening, as we're doing right now, that I see my heart rate a little bit elevated into you know the early hours in the morning. So again, we'll let you know how how the uh experiment goes tonight and how we sleep after just one drink late in the evening. But yeah, I I've I found this research to be very accurate. And you know, I think it's interesting to compare all this up with uh especially now that we have these smart watches where you can track this stuff because when we were younger we couldn't do that.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Exactly. And I think if there's anything to take away, sleep is absolutely foundational to your health. It's important. If you're not getting enough sleep, you know, might want to talk to your doctor, etc., because it can really have a big impact on your health and well-being. So I think sleep is an important topic.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah, and again, exercise is important to helping you sleep. So if you're not getting regular exercise and you're having trouble sleeping, that's something you want to look into. But yeah, those are good takeaways. I think we're not doing practical tips on sleep this week, uh, because I don't neither of us purport to be sleep experts. And of course, you know, it's just the typical type of tips that you would see all over the internet if you look at, you know, how what can I do to sleep better? Do meditation. Uh, how about not looking at your screen for four hours right before you go to bed? Stuff like that. So important. Spray lavender on your pillow.

unknown 20:49

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

All right. Well, great podcast this week on sleep, Jen. Um, really enjoyed chatting about this and looking forward to the next podcast. Uh, we we will have a podcast next week. We'll just go ahead and say it. That's right. After that, we'll be taking a little bit of a break for a few weeks. Uh, but look forward to another podcast next week. If you haven't been out on practically. Um, did a new piece on actually uh how gardening is good for your soul and told of a bit of a bit of a personal story on that one, and it's been super popular. So that was really nice to see. If you want to comment on the podcast or if you'd like to read more of our work, head on over again to practically. As always, if if you have comments, please feel free to email us as well, alex at practically. So that's it for this week. And until next time, remember fitness is for everybody.